Questions to ask yourself [ e ]

Let's say you were fluent now. What would that get you? I guess you could possibly get the kind of job you want in Japan. I assume that's preferrable to getting that same job in the States, or you wouldn't want to stay in Japan at all (unless there's some factor you're not telling us about).

Is [whatever that makes working in Japan more attractive] worth what you'd have to sacrifice/pay to become fluent (and therefore able to get that job)? I know you have to factor in things other than the potential job, but after making those adjustments why isn't the answer clear to you? If the answer IS clear, stop reading now.

If the reason you don't want to leave Japan is you don't want to feel like you've wasted your time:
1. Of course you haven't wasted your time. Not to lay some corny bullshit on you, but the life experiences you've had couldn't be a waste of time. I mean, why would I spend so much time reading about them if they were? You never know how it will pay off, no matter what choice you make, but it will somehow. Maybe it will impress some woman that you want to go out with, who knows. ;)
2. You could go back to the States, get the kind of job you want and continue your Japanese studies there. I know it's not the same as learning in Japan, but if you want to live the lifestyle you're accustomed to AND continue learning, it seems a reasonable compromise.
3. If the truth is you feel like you're more likely to find Mrs. Right in Japan, then all bets are off. That would definitely confuse the matter.

But, importantly, be comforted by the fact that unless there's the possibility of you ending up in the gutter, there really isn't a bad choice to be made. (more corny bullshit? you decide.)

posted by kongorillaOctober 25, 2001 at 11:28

Sagely advice [ e ]

Well then maybe it's getting over that feeling of waste or that feeling of giving up or of not finishing what I started. I started with the intent of being able to have close relationships with Japanese companies while working in America. That lead to studying Japanese which led to lots of time invested which lead to .. etc etc to the present where I don't see "having close relationships with Japanese companies" as so easy even if I was fluent. Meaning it's no more easy than doing the same with American companies.

I actually have no desire to work in Japan and I have no special desire to have a Japanese wife/girlfriend except in how it would help me to learn Japanese. That sounds really cold but my point is, if you believe there are lots of "fish in the ocean" then there's no reason, while I'm in Japan working to learn Japanese that I shouldn't try to met somebody that won't effectively stop me from reaching my goal (ie, a non-Japanese speaking person)

That doesn't mean I couldn't fall for any other person just that I'm only actively trying to met Japanese women. Conversely the more I know about them the less likely it seems I'll met someone for whom the cultural differences are not too big for me. Much stronger gender roles for example. The stereotype that only branded items are any good or that movie stars are to be worshipped. That's not all of them but is surprisingly a high percentage.

There are some pro Japanese women things like it seems like the odds of finding a woman that plays some video games is higher in Japan than the states but it's like 1 in 10 (jp) vs 1 in 50 (us). It also seems like the odds of finding a woman that's interested in one of the following, graphic design, internet, CG, programming is higher in Japan but again like 1 in 20 (jp) vs 1 in 100 (us). In other words, still impossible but not as impossible as the states

Back to the Jobs, if I was fluent I could get an *executive* like job in Japan. But, I don't know if I want an *executive* like job. I've never had one, it's never been a vision of mine unless you consider president of my own small development company to be that kind of job. Maybe it should be a vision of mine. If it's a choice between just being a team member programmer until I retire vs *exec* I guess I'd pick *exec*.

If I stay, get fluent, I could also probably more easily be an *exec* back home. I'm sure there are positions for people that know games and are fluent in English/Japanese.

The biggest argument against coming back is there's nothing really luring me. Last time it was a chance to work on a Crash game (ie, mega hit), work with lots of friends and make big bucks. This time it's unknown. I'd end up just calling a recruiter and seeing where I land.

posted by greggmanOctober 25, 2001 at 16:16

AAARRRGGG !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [ e ]

O KAY NOW !!! What you need to do is to STOP analyzing every little thing to death. GEEZ LOUISE !!! I mean this is what I'm hearing;

I think I want p-nut butter & jelly sandwhich.
Should I have it with creamy or crunchy p-nut butter? I mean if I have the creamy one, then will I miss the crunch of the crunchy one? Oh dear.

But if I have the crunchy one then will I miss the way the creamy one sticks better to the roof of my mouth. YUMMY.

Oh what will I do? What if I eat the creamy kind only to figure out that I really should have had the crunchy kind, and when I finally decide between crunchy & creamy there is also the massive decision of ............ Oh My God !! WHAT TYPE OF JELLY? AAARRRGGG !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I think I'm gonna barf.

Maybe you need to try not to live life as if evrything little thing matters. Hey, wait a minute, let me re-phrase ... Maybe you need to try to live your life.

36 is not a bad age, but with the way you analize everything, you'll be 50 and still wondering if that crunchy p-nut butter sandwhich you ate when you were 36 would have been creamy instead, how different would things have been?

I said to Tutu one time something about , "What if I would have done that differently back then, I could have ....................." and she stopped me right in the middle of my sentence and said, "What if, doesn't exist. You can't go back and change it. Don't regret. Just move on. Life doen't stop for you to worry about, What if?"

I know you will likely do the opposite of what I say, but I think you should come back to the USA, and be a beach bum, or a pro surfer or programmer or teacher or something. You learned alot of Japaneese in the US, and you ahd friends and family to do things with too. None of us feel that you wasted any life. You did what none of us ever had the opportunity (nor the BALLS) to do, go off to another country, live there, by yourself, not work for 15 months, study at your leisure, learn a forgein language, practically make a "life journal" out here on the web. I mean what a massive life accomplishment. Giving up doesn't have to mean "throwing in the towel", it could mean, fork in the road, new path to travel.

We all support you no matter what. Just live life, have fun and be happy.

posted by MrsRedDaveOctober 29, 2001 at 10:22

SO ... You've got analysis paralysis, too! [ e ]

I happen to live with someone who analyzes everything to death, over and over! God, I do get so tired of it, even though I am thankful for the analysis .... so in the end, I just say "It's time to move on." And, he finally agrees it is time to move on. Everytime things work out well and we do what we wanted to in the first place.

SO ... I'm saying to you, son, MOVE ON! It doesn't matter what you do, just explore your options and you'll know your real choices. No one would ever call you a quitter ... look at all you've done with you life. YOU LIVE IT! I believe all of us know deep inside what we really want, so go for it! Look inside ... Do anything you want! If nothing is luring you, then that's the answer...stay where you are until something does.

Another thought ... What really makes you think you aren't fluent? Is it your standards or does your instructor or someone else tell you that. I can't believe that you cannot communicate well enough to work as you would like. Why not try it? Take the chance. What does your recruiter need ... a diploma?

After all of my rants, I already know what you will say. But you did ask.

posted by momOctober 30, 2001 at 14:52

How fluent is fluent? [ e ]

How fluent do you think Mark was when he made his Japanese connections? If he was Level 1 or 2, how did he get to that point so fast?

posted by kongorillaOctober 31, 2001 at 12:26

Fluency [ e ]

I'm not sure how fluent Mark was when he left Japan but he was here at least 15 more months than I've been here so far. My feeling is from my progression that I might be around the same level at the end of 3 years.

Looking for other possibilities. Mark was in his early 20s, hence, like I brought up before, he fit in with the singles crowd, had a few girlfriends, was probably still used to living like a student etc. I don't know his exact job either but my impression was that he was much high level than me. Whether that was because he had lots more experience or was here at a time when coming to Japan was heaven for Americans (see below) or just because he negociates well I'm not sure. It could just be that Sega was much smaller at the time so each person had more responsibilities.

One of his minor *responsibilities* was helping the big boss practice English which is/was a major connection for him (that's how he got me into Sega) and he was also friends with the guys that eventually made it big at Sega as in Yu Suzuki, and a few others that might not be as well known in the West but are now heads of development in Japan. Note: that's not to say I couldn't have gotten into Sega otherwise since I know several non Japanese at Sega that got in without high-level connections but because of that connection it was rather easy.

About that "heaven for Americans". In the late 1980s Japan had what they call the Bubble Economy. That's the time when Americans were all concerned that Japan was going to buy up all of America because Japan's Economy was doing so well and everybody was rich. That's the time when a company would take you out and spend $1500 per person on dinner. Expense accounts were huge and Japanese companies wanted American employees to help them do better in American markets and to get to know American's better. As such lots of people litterally got *setup*. Sign on the line, they fly you over to Japan, give you a house, a big salary etc. My impression was that Mark did not get *setup* but that compared to me he did somewhat better because at the time it was considered more of something the company needed so for example if they brought you over they might takes some pains to try to reproduce your lifestyle from the states which believe me would be very very expensive to do. On the other hand as he was only like 22 or 23 I think so maybe he was not living much different than I. The difference being I was 33, living like a 23 year old.

But anyway, that Bubble Economy burst and Japan has been in a recession for the last 10 years. Now they could mostly care less about Americans as far as hiring them except for speciallized positions like translator or other kind of East/West relationship positions.

posted by greggmanOctober 31, 2001 at 13:23

Under analyzing [ e ]

Well, I may over analyze but I know lots of people that under analyzed and ended up being in bad situations from which it was difficult to escape.

Here's an example of my over analyzing, there's a woman I kind of like. Most people would just go for it and see where it ends up BUT me, I see that she doesn't speak any English, has never studied English, has no desire to study English. What does that mean? It means that if we really hit it off, odds are VERY HIGH that I'll have to choose between America and her at some point. I could just decide now that there are "lots of fish in the ocean" and look for somebody else. That's what all the dating advice books would say to do. Is that over analyzing or just making smart life decisions?

I would love to keep doing what I'm doing to get fluent except that it COSTS A TON OF MONEY. In other words I have to choose something else. One, coming back to the U.S., basically means giving up on my last 4 years of study. I'm not sure what the other s mean. But, I'm also not sure if this study has any point. In other words I see the choice as difficult and unclear.

Finally, as for my not being fluent, it's very easy to define. In Japan there is a skill test you have to take to go to college and of course companies use it to decide to hire you or not. There are 4 levels. Level 4 is the easiest, Level 1 is the hardest. To go to college you have to pass level 1. I have no hope of passing level 1 nor do I care. It's like taking an SAT where all the words are words that nobody uses in everyday conversation. I'm supposed to take the level 2 test in December. We are practicing at school. In order to pass you need to get 60% or better. I'm scoring at the 35% percent level.

But besides that, I know I'm not fluent when I can't figure out how to say what I want to say which happens several times a day and also when I don't understand the other person which happens 2 or 3 times as much as often. When that changes to basically nearly always understanding and nearly always knowing how to say what I want to say then I'll be satisfied.

posted by greggmanOctober 31, 2001 at 17:20

[ e ]

>there's a woman I kind of like.

Two things could happen...you hit it off and have a great time, or you don't, and you are in the same position you are in now. I see only plusses so far.

>I see that she doesn't speak any English,
>has never studied English, has no desire
>to study English. What does that mean?

At this point in time, she isn't interested in speaking English.

>It means that if we really hit it off

If you "really hit it off", you'd be both happy and unalone for a good amount of time.

>odds are VERY HIGH that I'll have to choose
>between America and her at some point.

OK, so you're happy with here for days, weeks, months, maybe even years...then you get the itch to "come back to America". At that point you have a choice between two things YOU REALLY WANT. The girl (because if you didn't really like her after all this time, you wouldn't be having the angst of leaving her), and the USA (because if you didn't want to come back so badly, you wouldn't be having the angst of staying away).

So you could stay the way you are with very little turmoil in your life, or you could "go for it". If you go for it, you MAY hit it off (no guarantees), and you MAY hit it off real well (no guarantees here either). And if you do hit it off very well, you MAY have to choose between her and the USA (and even that's not guaranteed). And if you ever ARE in that situation (against the odds?), you have a choice between two things you are PASSIONATE about.

Truthfully, with ANY girl you date, you could rationalize why you shouldn't go out with her (if you twist the analysis in the proper way).

Or is that over analyzing things a bit? 8)

Some general advise...if you have a choice between two good things, and you choose one of them, it does you no good wondering about how much more happier you would have been had you chosen the other. Be happy that you had two great choices!

- blammo

posted by blammoNovember 1, 2001 at 11:42

Going for it [ e ]

I will most likely "go for it" but just because I like to argue ... um, I mean discuss.

Chosing between 2 good things. If you are talking about working in Japan vs coming home the problem is I don't see two good things. I see two mediocre / bad things. The bad thing about staying in Japan is making 1/2 what I would make in the states while living in an area that requires 20 or 30% more money, working every night until at least 10pm, having a 30 to 40 minute commute on a crowded train, working on something boring. Comming back to the U.S. I see, giving up Japanese, I guess is the only concrete bad but I expect I'll be working on something boring / uncool for a small to mid-size no name company, possibly not in L.A. (ie, not near friends)

If I saw something *good* the choice would be much easier.

As for the girl, well, my old girlfriend Rose pointed out this site when we first started talking. It, and especially the book, "Be Your Own Dating Service" had alot of what I considered good advice.

Some was about like you said, relationships are not guarenteed to last forever and you should enjoy what you can get out of them. Although that part of the book was mostly about when it ends, realizing you had a life experience, probably with many good points, that nobody is really at *fault*, and that you should move on instead of finding blame or wondering if you had just done X you'd still be together.

Other good, probably obvious, advice was that you need to get out to meet people and that if you are picky you need to get out more because it's going to be harder for you to find your match.

Something things you might not agree with but I did were among the following

*) In answer to the question "should you hang out with somebody who is not really right for you" or actually the question was "If you feel the relationship is not heading toward marriage, should it be over". That answer was you can do whatever you want but be aware that just being a couple for a while will *attach* you to that person making it difficult to break up therefore if you know they are not someone that really makes you happy, why waste time and risk attachment. I'm not sure how that relates in this case unless I assume to that old U.S. vs HER will actually happen.

*) Another piece of advice as to make a list of wants in a partner and separate them into "must haves" vs "can live withouts". A few of the author's "must haves" were "Must respect my career" since she is a therapist and some people think that's stupid stuff. Another is/was "must be drug free". Another was "must be smoke free".

She also gave the advice to make the first date short. 2 hours or less, for example, Lunch. The reason is many people might meet someone, hit it off, spend the whole night talking etc. They then think "Wow! This person must be perfect for me, we hit it off so well" and they throw their list out the window as in "yea, I know he smokes but I can live with it because we're such a good match". Her experience is that that is rarely the case. As soon as you come down off your high all those things you knew you needed when you were thinking clearly will come to the forefront.

Her advice is to keep it short then give yourself sometime to cool down and make a rational decision that will get you closer to finding a real live partner vs jumping into something you'll most likely regret a little ways down the road.

Whether that applies in this case or not I'm not sure. I think another on her list was "must live close by". In other words she wanted somebody she could actually see on a regular basis vs somebody a few states away she meet on a business trip. I could define that as Dan would say, "must not be G.U. (Geographically Undesirable)" and someone that does not want to live where I want to live is arguably G.U.

My hardest *must have* item (and I waffle on whether or not it should be a *must have*) is that I want my girlfriend/partner/wife to be able to share in my career. I'm not sure *exactly* what that means but it means something like...

I want to be able to talk about my work (making video games) and I want my partner to be interested in it and to understand and appreciate it. To what level that is required I'm not sure but it is basically why I got divorced. When I figured out that I really didn't want to talk to my wife, I wanted to talk to my friends since they shared common interests and she didn't. I'm sure to most people that sounds pretty harsh and I know it's going to make it hard to find somebody but I don't want to come up the same conclusion I did last time I was married.

What does that mean in actual terms I'm not sure. Do I need to meet another programmer? Would a game designer or artist be okay? How about a web designer, flash designer, or CG effects person? How about just somebody that likes playing games? I really don't know but when I meet somebody and it's clear that they've never or rarely played video games and it's clear they consider that *only for kids* I move on. I guess you could look at that as similar to that book's author's "must respect my career".

If you're curious, I think this woman I'm mentioning fits that point.

By the way, this seems to be getting way off the topic of the more pressing question which is the job question.

posted by greggmanNovember 2, 2001 at 16:30

[ e ]

I have no advice to give... just to say I am in the same boat. Should I stay or should I go?!

Have been here just over 2 years. Keep hearing 'just stay a little longer and your Japanese will be really good'. I am not getting my emotional quota filled though. And what kind of great job will I really get after all this?! And am nearly 29, the clock is ticking!!

see, I UNDERSTAND!!!

:)

posted by jsanNovember 18, 2001 at 16:38

no advice [ e ]

posted by getoffyerassMarch 3, 2002 at 13:28

Anxiety Prone? [ e ]

Do you suffer from anxiety? Anxiety tends to affect how much a person will worry and analyze things. (yeah, you're programmer so analyzing is part of who you are, but anxiety tends to exascerbate the level of uneccessary scrutiny of every little thing).

Anxiety also contributes to "fear", as in the fear of the unknown. And that's precisely what you're going through here: You're fearing the unknown, and therefore cannot decide on the appropriate path to take.

Take care of the anxiety and you'll have a clearer mind to move forward with whatever life hands you...

posted by AnonomussyMarch 16, 2004 at 11:54